Intro: Magical customer experiences don't happen by accident. They happen through careful planning and meticulous design. Kevin and Debbie have been engineering, extraordinary customer experiences for over 30 years. Join us as we explore corporate culture, branding, service, excellence, and much more through storytelling, technical curiosity, and friendly conversation. The Disney way for the digital age will be revealed.
[00:00:29]Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Disney way for the digital age. I am Kevin Kelly and my partner here is Debbie Zmorenski .Today we are talking about understanding your digital ecosystem and the touch points that support at all. Hey Deb, how you doing?
[00:00:45] Debbie: I'm doing great again.
[00:00:47] KK: Um, I am on my third cup of coffee and I just wanna say, I wanna share all the lovely people, the great news that you have. Yes.
[00:00:55] Debbie: Yeah. So I saw this big health report and I am a big coffee drinker and it says you should have one to three cups of coffee today. It's great for you. It kills the bad cholesterol. It's good for your heart. Uh, it, it improves brain working. I, I, you know, I just, I was just waiting for them to come back around. Coffee's bad. Coffee's good. Coffee's you know, So now it's great for you. So just go for it. One to three cups a day, they said in order to gain the benefit. Wow. Yeah.
[00:01:23] KK: Well, alright, so I need lots of coffee today. Cause I got in at 3:00 AM. I was flying out Orlando, traveling back home and flying on an airline. Oh wow. Heck flying on Frontier and, and it's been good experience. Everything's been fine, but I was, I got there early and I'll. I'll say it was human error. Um, Google flights seemed to show something at two o'clock and I, as I typically do, I just wanna get home early. And so I show up early and they said, Nope, that doesn't even exist. So I'm sitting at the airport, I mean six, seven hours, but that's on me. So finally it's boarding. I walk over to gate 17 where my real time, uh, boarding pass. Yeah. It's it's it's on my phone so it can be updated. Right. It says gate 17, I walk over to gate 17 and they said, oh no, that's, um, we're now boarding on gate 81. I said, well, where's the 81. They said, oh, well, that's on the other side of the airport. You need to leave security, go through security again. And I was like, you've got to be kidding. Meanwhile, it's 10 minutes to boarding SOS kind of jog out. Um, I will, I will thank clear. I love clear. I'm also TSA free. I, I need both. I come. And it is just jammed. There's gotta be hundreds of people waiting at, at, uh, security. And I got 10 minutes and , I go over to CLEAR they scan my eyes, they walk me to the front of the line. Just walk me right in is just the best and yes, Deb, you talk about like the people that glare at you, it's like. Boy, you you're such a jerk. You just walked. I'm like I paid for it. You could pay for it, you know? Yeah, exactly. Right. and then I get there and find out it's been delayed and delayed and delayed. , you know, big fail for Frontier. Just, just in that they didn't notify me. Right. I've got this wonderful computer in my pocket. And I've got your app open. I'm looking at your boarding pass and you could send me an alert of a gate change. You could send me an SMS, you could do a lot of things that would use technology to give me a better experience than they didn't. Big, missed opportunity. Right. Mm-hmm and you know, I think if I make any point about technology is really use it to solve your problems? Yeah. Gates change. That's not, I, I wasn't upset about that. I was upset that I was at the airport for six hours and didn't know until 10 minutes before boarding that the gate had changed. Mm-hmm so, and then CLEAR just was, they were total heroes yesterday getting me through this. So anyway, that's my travel story, tying it back to opportunities for brands to make great decisions. And that's what we're here to talk about today, right? Yeah. Touch points. All these opportunities that they, they have to either create a pleasant experience or not so pleasant. So today we're here to talk about your digital ecosystem and, uh, the anatomy of that its importance to your brand and your culture. Um, so simply the, the digital ecosystem contains many of the digital touchpoints that so many of us are familiar with from. Website eCommerce site, um, social media platforms that all the brands are on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, et cetera, uh, TikTok now. And you're, you're paid digital media, which many brands are investing in heavily online reputation and reviews. Don't forget about that. That's something honestly that, um, people would hire us and say, oh, we've really gotta start paying attention. And we would do some research. We said, oh my God. Yeah, you do. You've got 798 unanswered reviews and comments. So, you know, Don't forget about that stuff that's out there in the digital ecosystem that you're not paying attention to. Doesn't mean you're consumers. Uh, doesn't mean your consumers are not paying attention. They certainly are. And if you're in the hospitality, uh, vertical, they're certainly looking at reviews. Um, and then if you're really doing it right. Things like your CRM, your chat and call centers, and, and so much more of that. So these things that you can integrate, you know, that that's all the digital touch points, but boy, there's, there's a seemingly infinite amount of non-digital and these, um, overlooked touch points, like parking lot experience, right? mm-hmm yeah. A restaurant or an entertainment or any retail space. Right. So all those different ways that you touch your customer as. Go down that journey with you.
[00:05:32] Debbie: So Kevin, that Frontier app that you have on your phone yes. Is a digital touchpoint. Um, yes, it did not work well to service you, but it's a digital touchpoint, uh, and that's something that they should. Be aware of. So I just wanna kind of put a bow on this concept of touchpoints in general, aside from digital touchpoints. Yeah. Um, we've kind of thrown the term out there a couple of times. And then I want to give you a process that you can use to actually assess your touchpoints and find out are they contributing to an exceptional experience or are they actually hurting you in, in your business? And. Touchpoints are all about detail. They're about every single interaction that your customer has. Every single opportunity to interact with you. That's a touchpoint and I'll give two parking lot examples. yes.
So let's say you own a restaurant. And the first point of contact for a customer coming to your restaurant is the parking lot. They pull into the parking lot. Is there a valet? Are they available? Are you sitting there waiting for a valet? Uh, so you decide to self park and you pull around and there's potholes in the parking lot and your car hits a really hard divot and you feel like you've broken your axle and you're trying to find a space on your own. And there are no spaces and you know, on and on and on. Well, obviously this is a touch point. It's the first impression that a customer may have of your company, right? You get out of your car and you look at the building and the letters for the restaurant name, half of them are burned out and not only does it look bad, I've seen examples where the letters that are lit make a bad word you know, and then you go in and is that seating hostess? Is she there? Is she attentive? Is she smiling? Is she efficient? Um, that's another touchpoint. You walk through the restaurant to your table and is the carpet clean? Is there food on the carpet. You know, all of these are touching.
[00:07:48] KK: Is there a smell? Is there, what is the lighting? You know, it's like all these things that people I get really, uh, upset when I see lighting, miscues, people have taken the, um, uh, the, the they've gone energy efficient, which I love. Right. Yeah. And so many of these cheap L E D lightings they're blue. It makes me feel like I'm in a high school cafeteria yes. Warmth, warmth of dim light spotlight. It, it creates that kind of intangible difference between, you know, a, an intimate, uh, feel of small restaurant or this kind of like cafeteria, you know, have a seat over there, you know, all those things, the smells, what do they smell? And, you know, the smell a, uh, carpet that's been clean too many times and smells musty, or do you, you know, smell baked cookies and, and, uh, seared steak. Yeah. Whatever that desired experience is.
[00:08:37] Debbie: If you've ever been into a, a restaurant for a special anniversary and they have all this mood lighting and the server actually has to come over with a little pen, light flashlight so you can even read the menu. They might be going a little too far the other way. right. Yeah. Yeah.
But so all of those things
[00:08:53] KK: matter before you go on, I gotta give one more example of the, you know, cuz the, the lighting and the smell thing for me. Yeah. So you ever been to Ikea? Big warehouse. Right. Um, do you ever try their cinnamon buns? They're really good, right? Oh yeah. So they're good, but they don't have cinnamon buns cuz they wanna sell us cinnamon buns. They're like a dollar. They, they have cinnamon buns because they bake them. And when you walk in the door, it smells like someone's baking cookies. It smells like a cozy home. Mm-hmm that's, you know, there's fresh baked goods. It's part of that whole experience. And that's a touch point, right? They're not making, they don't wanna sell me at $1. Uh, They don't wanna sell me a $1 Cinnabun bun. They wanna send, sell me a $5,000 living room set. Yep. And they want me to feel good about, oh, that this seems cozy. Well, maybe it's partly because the lighting's good and I smell home home baked goods.
[00:09:44] Debbie: Well, they could it's uh, when I was a popcorn vendor, that's why I could sell popcorn at eight o'clock in the morning on Main St. Right. Yeah, it smells so amazing. And here they are, and they're on Main Street USA. And part of that experience is popcorn. I'm, I've got lines at the wagon at eight in the morning for popcorn. Right.
[00:10:01] KK: I mentioned that poem that my mom had framed and it was, you know, that idea of, uh, and the popcorn was the key part of that walking into the park, peering down Main Street at castle and the smell and popcorn. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could recite the whole thing but popcorn is key .
[00:10:15] Debbie: But so yeah, I mean, all of those things, the things you even may not think about to Kevin's point, you know, what does to interact with your company? What does it look like? Feel like, sound like, smell, like, you know, all of the senses come into play. If I'm hearing employees arguing in the back. Well, obviously that's not a good touchpoint experience. Right. Right, right. And it works for your website as well. You know, if I click on, uh, a link, does it take me where I need to go? Can I easily access what I'm looking for? Those are touchpoints.
So not to, you know, belabor this too much more because what I've really liked to get to before Kevin talks in a little more detail about, um, the digital ecosystem is. There is a process that you can use to assess every single touchpoint. And you're going to have to dig deep to really creatively think about what's every single touchpoint and that, uh, touchpoint or that touchpoint process is called a, uh, touchpoint mapping process. And what that means is. I identify my first touchpoint. You're gonna have to sit down with your team. Don't do this solo, sit down with your team, have some frontline employees there with you and say, all right, what's the first interaction the customer has with us. Well, it's the parking lot. All right. let's think about our parking lot. Is it clean? Is it, does it have potholes or the valets well trained? You think about all of these touch points within, uh, That parking lot. Then to really know how it's working. You gotta get out of your office and walk your parking lot. What are you seeing? What are you feeling? What are you hearing? What are you smelling? Because that's what the customer's experiencing. I'm going to walk over and observe my seating hostess and see, how is she behaving? Is she interacting with the customers? Is she, she at the podium when she needs to be? Identify the things that are going well within each touchpoint and identify those things that might need some attention and then put together a, a plan for how do I improve on this touchpoint? Right. So touchpoint mapping, where you list out every touchpoint you. Think of right up to signing the check in the restaurant and walking out the door, uh, what will your customer say? Are you going to say that was a great experience and I'm, and I will definitely be back or not.
[00:12:48] KK: Right? Yeah. And it sounds cliche, but truly every, uh, so, so you gotta pay attention, right? That's the one thing I'll say is all you really need to do is pay attention. Yes. You gotta pay attention to detail. Right. Right. Um, but every, every problem is an opportunity to create something good. So, um, hate to beat the parking lot into the ground. So to say, but Deb I'm gonna ask you to tell the story, the, the, the challenge of where I parked my car, what do you got? 20,000 cars in the parking lot at Disney and, you know, they ask you? Do, do you know where I parked my car?
[00:13:18] Debbie: Yes, they did. And they used to do it all the time. In fact, they still do. It's the Magic Kingdom parking lot is like a 12,000 car parking lot. Um, wow. And the guests would obviously, you know, to park their car and. The point of this story is that sometimes problems with touchpoints may seem out of your control, but often are not .Right. And the way Disney solved this particular issue was they tapped into the cast members who actually did the parking every single day and asked for their help in figuring this out.
So here's what happens. Uh, the guest parks in your parking lot. They're all excited. We're going to Walt Disney World. We're going to Walt Disney World. We're gonna see Mickey Mouse we're all excited. And they get on the tram and the tram driver has the little microphone and he says, Hey folks, welcome to Walt Disney World. And, uh, don't forget, you're parked in Goofy rows 11 through 15, Goofy 11 through 15. And uh, and the guests are going, oh, we're going to Disney where we're going to Disney world. and then yeah, the
[00:14:21] KK: kids are jumping around. You're pulling in this room, Disney around. Yeah, I didn't hear that!
[00:14:26] Debbie: That's right. The tram driver says that at least three times sometimes more and, and they recommend, um, you know, oh, you might wanna write this down now with so many people having cell phones they'll also say, uh, take a picture. There's the Goofy sign, take a picture, rows 11 to 15 and keep that for later today, you're gonna need it. So they tell 'em like five times. Guests go in. They have a wonderful time. And by the time they leave after 10 hours in, in the Magic Kingdom , in the heat and with the crying children who are exhausted, um, the last thing they wanna do is still be at Walt Disney world. So they go out and they get to the parking lot. And they can't remember where they parked their car. Cause they didn't write it down. They didn't take a picture of it because they were so excited and they would go up to the cast members. And this happened, uh, this solution was put in place many years ago and they would literally walk up to a cast member that was in a parking lot costume and say, do you know where I parked my car? And the cast member is trying to be polite, but thinking how in the world would I know where you parked car, right. And the solution really trying to deliver a magical experience for something that truly kind of wasn't our fault, right? They would call security and security would come around with the big blue van, with the red lights on it, or the blue lights, whatever they were at the time and load the family into the van and drive them up and down every row of the 12,000 car parking lot. Is this your car? Is this your car? No, no. Ours is the white rental, which the white rental thousand of the 12,000 cars for were white rentals right. So they drive 'em up and down the parking lot, trying to identify their car. And these people are exhausted and it may, it takes a long time. And of course, security has probably other things to do. Um, this might be a good time to say Disney runs on that. The thought that this may not be our fault, but it is our responsibility. Mm, right.
So this happened so many times cast members kept going to manager's going we gotta do something. Guests come up to us every day. Do you know where I parked my car? And so the manager said, well, why don't you guys get together and see what you come up with? And here's what the cast members came up with. And they got a printout of a blank printout of the parking lot. You know, and all the little spaces and everything in it, and the morning people would take right on the map, what time they were parking each section of the parking lot. So 10:00 AM. We're now parking Goofy rows 11 to 15. They'd mark off those rows. if a guest came out and, and they, oh, by the way, they passed that paper on to the next shift. And then the next shift, right. If a guest came out and said, do you know where I parked my car? The cast member pulled out this piece of paper and said, what time did you come in this morning? Well, we came in about 10 o'clock. Okay. At 10 o'clock, we were parking Goofy 11 to 15. Right. And now the guests knew within four or five rows. This is where, this is where we are. And this is where we get off. Phenomenal solution. Right. Created a process, comparatively easy solution. I gave him a blank map and a golf pencil and, uh, and said, here's keep track. So this concept of it's not our fault, but it may be our responsibility or it may be our problem is I think, uh, how a lot of businesses don't necessarily think. If you got a restaurant, your signs are halfway burned out and you say, look, I've called the signed people and they can't get here for another week to 10 days. Well, what if you had regular PMs done on the signs, you know, if you had, yeah, right. Come once a month or every, see on average, the sign burns out once every two months and they said, yeah, this element's getting weak. So let's go ahead and replace it now. Right.
[00:18:23] KK: So what you're saying is, yeah, process apply a
[00:18:26] Debbie: process process. A preventative process if possible, a corrective process, if necessary.
[00:18:33] KK: Well, the parking lot corrective process is. You know, it's simple and amazing and it creates this magical experience. So now you have an answer to this unanswerable question. Do you know where I parked my car? Actually, I do. Do you remember when you got into the yeah. You know, into the park, when, when did you show up? And I imagine the technological update for the golf pencil and, and paper map is I just put GPSs on the trams and. Yeah. There's a, a digital log of when they were where yeah, very simple. Right? Simple tra trams don't go to the places where there's already cars. They get, they go to where the people need to be moved. So right. You know, there's the technology update for that. Not difficult, honestly, not even expensive anymore, you know, there's not anymore platforms out there that can, that can do that. So mm-hmm yeah. It's an opportunity to create a magical experience.
[00:19:21] Debbie: Mm-hmm so it's important to understand, not only what all of your touchpoints are, but where there may be pain points within those touch points that could be hurting your business .And also identify what is going really well at each touchpoint, so that you can make sure that you sustain that and also think of new technology or new ways to make it better.
[00:19:49] KK: Yep. And all these touchpoints make up this, this sphere of influence, right? This, this, you know, uh, touchpoint map, um, or this touchpoint system, which I love the acronym TPS, cuz that's a reference back to the office and the TPS reports are due. But yeah, the TPS, the touchpoint system is made of all these things from the digital side, uh, from the physical side, right from, you know, um, all of the senses that can be applied in person as well. So it's this idea that you've got this, uh, touchpoint system, this sphere of influence and these opportunities to create magical experiences and just, you know, all you need to do is pay attention. You do have to pay quite, you know, detailed attention, but pay attention, um, do analysis and apply process. Yes. Um, I, I always say, you know, it's typically, you know, people say, oh, I need technology to solve this problem. Eh, yes you do. But typically it's three parts it's it's technology, process and people. So find the right technology. Um, you do have to apply a process to that and what is the people factor in it? You know, there's always a people factor. Even. I always say the best chat bots are the ones that have the best live human takeover. Right. So, you know, it's invariably, uh, X percent of the time, you're not the bot doesn't have the answer. Well, as you're live, pick up quick, Do they look back and read what's already been said, so what is the process that's been applied to whatever you've decided, uh, to pick as your technology solution.
[00:21:23] Debbie: So I think you have some good examples too, don't you, some, some clients that you've worked with, uh, that really kind of bring this home.
[00:21:32] KK: Yeah. So I mean, great example of something that would frustrate me for years. So, um, Okay. I, I don't, I'm not in the entertainment business. I supply widgets right? Well, some folks supply, I I'm a very large consumer of electronic widgets, iPhones, um, things that plug in right .For years, you would get these widgets, these, these devices, these battery power devices, and they'd like, okay, you open the box now go charge. You don't want, you don't want, you would've used this thing right. Years ago. Yeah. Apple had decided that yeah, every phone's gonna come with a 70% charge, you know, that turned very negative experience to a very positive experience and they set the standard. Yes. So I think pretty much everything that comes outta the box now, um, comes outta the box with a battery. That's ready to go. So thinking about what is that unboxing experience like and thinking about, um, following through everything that you deliver to your client to the full journey, why'd they buy it? What do they wanna do with it? Did you make it easy to do that? So that's one example.
Um, obviously your website is a huge example, so don't just play, pay a little attention to that pay a lot of attention to that. I will go back to Disney. Um, you know, they've got the Genie we were talking about recently, how, um, It's it's a shame that if you are not, and my family is fanatical about it. If you're not a planner, you could save up, spend a ton of money, go to Disney. And I, and I saw it when I was in Orlando. There were some folks going to the parks in the hotel and I, I saw they're like, Hey, how about we head over? You know, they didn't have a plan and I'm thinking, oh, you were, I feel so terrible. You're gonna be disappointed because you don't wing it. You know, you're gonna get on two rides, three rides. So Disney has this free program called the genie. And, and if you've taken a little bit of initiative, you can help have the genie help you plan your day. And if they use data points, they, they, they know when certain rides are lighter and the lines are, you know, shorter. So they say, okay, well you should book over there and you click on that. Not only that, and the data gets better now because I've got real time data. I've got a certain amount of people that in their schedule presently are going to be at the Ratatouille ride. So I know that. And then, so this system just gets better and better that way. Yeah. Um, I just, you know, if you show up and, and again, my, we have every well, not my wife, my daughter, they, they ran the whole show last time, which I love , but we get so much done because we're planners. So, um, and the reality is you can't depend on that. So in order to avoid that experience of, Hey, let's just go wing it, end up going on two rides. And I spent, you know, $800 for my family to walk in the park. That's a bad experience. So they'd use the website. And other means and, and, and the app, um, they have a very good app. So yeah, I highly recommend paying a lot of attention to your digital assets, especially website and apps.
[00:24:30] Debbie: Kevin, do you have time? Cause I love this, this example. Do you have time to maybe quickly cover what you did with Hard Rock and Reverb?
[00:24:39] KK: Yeah, that would be great. So, um, oh, thanks. We, um, we built two AI digital assistant for Reverb and it's a new hotel chain by Hard Rock um, and they had to be really cognizant of how the brand was already established. So these things needed to work in the voice and the style of Hard Rock um, Reverb was a little different. Um, it's a new brand for Hard Rock they've, as they said, flip the script. Um, they're focused on the fan as opposed to the rockstar. So, you know, you go into the room, it doesn't, doesn't give you a quote from Steven Tyler. You know, it shows you notes from fans, the, that about how much they love their concert. And it's got like clipped concert ticket stubs. So very cool. So when we went ahead and we're creating this chat, It wasn't just there to answer questions. It was there to be interesting and funny. So she has a name, her name's Eve she's. Probably about in her mid thirties, she's got, may have a couple tattoos. Um, and she is a little bit, uh, quippy sometimes give you a funny answer, a little sarcastic answer. Hmm. But that's, you know, that was a huge opportunity for them to, um, create an experience that aligned with their brand mm-hmm and then, you know, on, on the Alexa side, every room has an Alexa and there's limitations. We have to stay in some cases in, in the Amazon Alexa voice, but we do have opportunities to deliver, um, musical responses and certain things that, that are in the, the voice and tone of, uh, the hard rock brand. And that's so important. So. You know, look at all these touchpoints and do they represent your brand? Um, the other thing I'll say, you know, there's, there, there are so many too many to, to list. Um, the other one I do wanna circle back to that is often overlooked is, um, social media. Yes. There's your, your outbound social media, your deliberate social media. But do you have a code of a contact for your employees? So what if your employees are posting on social? Um, do you encourage it? Do you discourage it? Do you mention the brand? Um, and we were able to dig up current. We'll post it on the site, but I think if you put Disney code of contact, it does have Bob Chapeck on it. So it is up to date and we've gotten full code of conduct for Disney. So they, you know, they're very specific about that kind of stuff, but mm-hmm, , um, Hard Rock i, I, you know, last thing I'll say about them, I I'm huge fan almost as much as Disney too. Um, they do have their, their four mottos, which are kind of their four rocks that, that everything, um, you know, it represents the brand and that does follow through for reverb and it's, Love All, Serve All . Take time to be kind. Save the planet ,and All is one. Mm-hmm , which I, I like that last one. So, you know, very quickly you understand what you're becoming part of if you're an employee, how you should represent yourself and, you know, everything should ladder up to those, those, they call them mottos. Um, you know, but those four statements.
[00:27:30] Debbie: So I, I guess, to, to pull all of this together, when we talk about touchpoints and talk about the digital ecosystem, which also encompasses touchpoints, it seems like it's very complex, but one way to think of it, I think most. Of you. Most business people are familiar with the value chain concept and that's been around for a very long time. And the old value chain concept is really quite linear and sometimes very rigid. You know this step one to step two to step three. The thing about a digital ecosystem is, is that any one piece of the chain can jump over another in order to accomplish a service goal. So when you think of digital ecosystem and you think of a sphere versus a linear line that has to be followed, it's a very flexible value chain that allows you to move back and forth within this sphere in different directions to create parts of your business, whether it's analyzing your touchpoints or putting in service framework or whatever that is to impact your customers in a positive way. And, um, gaining that competitive advantage to keep your customers for life. Absolutely. So this, the concept is so much more flexible and as all things evolve and change into something else and, uh, I still like the value chain. I think it's a valuable tool to understand, but I'm a real fan of the digital ecosystem and the concept of the sphere where things can move around and back and forth. And yeah, you're not held to that rigid line in order to accomplish a goal, you know,
[00:29:17] KK: Yeah, we talk about that a lot in, in the book evolution from a linear value chain to this 3d value sphere. And it's true. Whereas, um, manufacturer distributor, retailer, consumer, you know, manufacturer, consumer, we're doing, you know, a ton of D to C where helping, um, brands figure out how to get direct to consumer while not alienating their retail channels. So mm-hmm, , you know, that's one simple example, but in the book we're going pretty, pretty deep into that whole 3d value sphere.
So believe it or not, we are, we are at our time and we've gotta give these folks the greatest piece of advice they'll ever hear.
[00:29:55] KK: And again, you know, in summary back trying to pull out some of the best things that we think, um, you can apply. Pay attention and notice opportunities, right? So every time there's a challenge. Every time there's a complaint, you get employee, that's saying, Hey, I, people are asking me these questions. I, I can't answer, you know, they're unanswerable. So, you know, what should I do? Really take a deep look at what the solution is. And typically there's a process you can apply that process may contain technology. Maybe it doesn't right, maybe, but it is an opportunity you've created a touch point, an opportunity to speak with your consumer. Take advantage of it. Yes. So, well, that's our advice folks. Uh, I hope you enjoyed. I enjoyed listening to Debbie stories. I hope you did too. so, and likewise. Yeah. So we look forward to seeing you next week and thanks for listening.
[00:30:45] Debbie: Thank you. Goodbye.
[00:30:47]Outro: You've been listening to the Disney Way for the Digital age!
Our producer and engineer is Steven Byrom. Show coordinator is Taranpreet Trehan. And voiceover by Cindy Clifford. Kevin and Debbie can be reached for free advice or paid consulting at [email protected] or [email protected]. A new episode is released each Tuesday morning. We hope you’ll continue to listen!
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